Messages in ICG #boardofdirectors (Slack) <2019-09-18 2019-09-22>
2019-09-20
Betsy
R. Marks 6:21 AM
My
apologies for being absent: I've been working through documents for my job (or
what's left of it) and I've had to take two trips down to my office in
Virginia, along with an interview which may or may not lead to another job, but
I've also been chewing on the conversation that's happening here on Slack.
1.
You can't see the Slack channel that the President has archived, which means
that unless you are a part of a THREAD on that channel, you can no longer see
any of the foregoing conversation, nor can you see any of the attached files to
those conversations.
2.
Archived threaded conversations DO still appear in YOUR list.
This
had had the effect of burying not just the notification that a motion took
place at all, but also ALL discussion pertaining to it. It has also buried both
the draft minutes of the meeting and the 5 Year Plan documentation.
As
a result of this situation:
I
move that we table the motion 2019-09-08 until we are able seethe whole debate
and all of the preceding documentation that went with the motion and Board of
Directors business.
Betsy
R. Marks
President,
Silicon Web Costumers' Guild
Alternate,
ICG Board of Directors (edited)
Furthermore,
until all Voting and Alternate members of this Board check in HERE on THIS
channel, I believe there should be no further debate on THIS channel and as
such, I request the President suspend debate or proceed to a roll call to
confirm that all interested parties are seeing these comments.
Regards,
Betsy
R. Marks
President,
Silicon Web Costumers' Guild
Alternate,
ICG Board of Directors (edited)
[1 reply Last reply 2019-09-20 8:38 AM]
Merrily 2
years ago
I agree. I see Betsy has already second the motion. GCFCG bod Rep
Betsy
R. Marks 7:36 AM
Seconded:
Betsy R. Marks, Silicon Web Costumers' Guild (for the purposes of Guidelines
discussion)
[28 replies Last reply 2019-09-23 5:27
AM]
Vicky Assarattanakul 2 years ago
I know that some people feel that the ICG should not be "accrediting"
masquerades as international level, that MDs should self-identify as
international level, regional level, etc.
Vicky Assarattanakul 2 years ago
I personally do like the ICG having an official recognition process. But my own
opinion aside, I think this is something that the membership will feel strongly
about.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
Agreed.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
I think we should have an accreditation process and have it tiered at regional
and international. People are asking for it and there’s no reason not to do it.
Optional thing that helps with PR? All good as far as I’m concerned. :) It is
on my personal list of things I want to see done, but I think I’ve made it
obvious that I’m all about making this a functional, relevant, and growing
group! Once we get through the guidelines, I would like to see this moved on!
If you make the motion, I will happily second it!
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
I know that the President and Vice President want to see this done as well. :)
Also sent to the channel
Jeanine Swick 2 years ago
Vicky, there was some discussion back in December on this. Byron's post was
made on Dec 26th, message 13515. I don't know if that was what you were
thinking of.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
We have a page on the website about accreditation.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
http://costume.org/wp/standards-of-practice-for-costume-competitions-requesting-icg-recognition-as-international/
International
Costumer's Guild
Accrediting International Costume Competitions
Visit the post for more.
Mar 8th, 2018
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
This document is from 2010 so the door is open to accredit.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
And the two organizations that requested information are welcome to submit for
accreditation, as are any other organizations which also wish to be recognized
formally. Nothing is stopping them.
Vicky Assarattanakul 2 years ago
Yes, I have asked for an accreditation committee for anime Boston to be formed,
however that was set aside because of the guidelines being updated, which
removes the accreditation process.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
If the current submitted document is voted on with that change intact, which I
think is a massive problem for the ICG because of the potential for liability
and enforcement issues.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
I’m more than concerned about the clear and present liability we are under with
the current, very outdated guidelines. (edited)
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
Liability with whom? Has Worldcon, Costume-Con, or Anime North suggested that
we should be sued for anything? If so, why has this information not come before
the ICG BOD? Such issues should be raised immediately.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Between the unprofessional tone and the lack of anti-discrimination language we
are at a serious risk of liability if any convention’s contest utilizes our
guidelines, promotes that use, and is guilty of discrimination. I have heard
multiple accusations. It is my firm belief that the three events you
listed, or any other, should not use our current guidelines because
there’s just too much risk. Of course, I’ve heard from several
events that won’t use our guidelines specifically because of these reasons as
well when I’ve been in discussions with them the last few years. My increasing
discomfort at the lack of movement has increased my discomfort. Now
that we have a proper document that covers these things, I have felt better. I
knew the guidelines committee had brought up the very issues cited, and so I
have been trying to have patience in the process. However, I now
understand multiple conversations I had with Marty in the years before his
passing.
We are very much at risk. If nothing has come
up then it is because we are very lucky or someone has done a dang good job
spin doctoring people.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
Fine. Please make a motion to withdraw the ICG Guidelines entirely. I'm
completely on board with removing them altogether and will second such a
motion.
Elaine 2
years ago
Where are these accusations and refusal of the guidelines? These are
things that should be being brought to the BoD with
documentation, not as 'well, I've heard...' Remember: t the ICG
is not, and never was meant to be, a regulatory entity! Now, i need to put this damn tablet down, i had eye surgery Friday, and my eyes are tied
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
Thank you, Elaine!
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
I see no need to remove the guidelines. Just they need to desperately be
updated, which we are trying to do.
Meanwhile, I don’t disclose sources of private
communications or interviews and as a former journalist and now freelance
journalist know my rights in such regard. I have not received any such
discrimination claims in my role as ICG representative. However, I have been
told by events that the ICG is irrelevant. I know Katsucon specifically has absolutely no need of us, and
since they have been a prelim for World Cosplay Summit.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
That's not new. DragonCon was founded in reaction to WorldCon and thoroughly rejected the Guidelines from the
very beginning. We've been fighting the appearance of the costume police since
the document was published. Acrimonious discussion cost the GCFCG almost a
dozen members who refuse today to rejoin because of the Guidelines. There's
never been a more toxic subject.
We would do far better to find a way to put an
updated electronic version of the Kennedy Compendium or Janet Wilson Anderson's
Masquerade Guide and leave it there. That would be a useful publication with
practical resources MDs can use or adapt as they see fit. I have copies of both
and just used the tech form content to create the form we used in Dublin this
year. Janet could give us permission to publish an adapted, updated version now
if we asked.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Nobody said it was new. Heck, Yaya Han was quite vocal about how
much she hates us on Hero’s of Cosplay and that was 6
years ago and it was quite clear that her beef was an old beef at that
time.
However, there is no reason why, if we love
this organization, we can’t rise above whatever ancient beefs are that may not
even be relevant today or defy the accusations that we are relics of an
outdated time and irrelevant. In fact. I would say that if you
really feel like that’s an OK image, you probably have no place in the
organization. I love the ICG and want to see it grow and be the
resource for the wide world of costuming/cosplay.
We are in a completely different era of
costuming and it’s absolutely wonderful! The hobby has grown
exponentially. After decades of support from the ICG to myself and
my children, I would love to see that continue for decades more. The only way
to do that is to stand up and move forward.
In my discussions with Marty Gear in the years
prior to his death, I felt his vision that we could bridge a gap, see the guild
spread across the world, and have an amazing community in all walks of
costuming. In my time since starting NOVA, I’ve been also trying to
get chapters in Williamsburg/Norfolk, Richmond, and Roanoke. When I lived in
Ohio at the turn of the century, I talked to everyone I could in Cleveland and
Columbus. I couldn’t get a group started, but was so thrilled to
learn one was forming recently. I’ve been talking to several groups
from Dragoncon across the Atlanta area. On
my recent trip to Sweden, I talked to multiple cosplayers about starting a
chapter. Their comic con was last weekend and the messages I got
from them were awesome. I’ve got contacts in SLC, Melbourne Australia, and
more.
The biggest reason these people have held back
on starting chapters is the lack of clear vision why they should go through the
on boarding process. Is there enough payout for them?
Our president and Vice President have been
working overtime to find us discounts, a platform that is usable for
communication (at this time, Slack, since it’s one of the top apps for business
communication and has such a fast learning curve and isn’t dying like yahoo
groups, update the guidelines to bring them more in line with modern
competitions, streamline on boarding, and more. Despite her serious health
issues this year and being on a family vacation , our president met with
multiple chapters and hopefuls.
Yes there are multiple resources already out
there. Sure we could just remove ours and say we don’t matter and point to
other resources. Or we can realize that regardless of what happened nearly 30
years ago, there’s a reason these guidelines have been created and somewhat
maintained and update them. We can be a resource for good in the fannish costuming world. We can realize that the
world is not what it was in the 80’s and 90’s where we were the outcast
weirdos. We are now the normal and the popular. We’ve crossed a
hurdle. While knowing history is good, at some point you have to
turn around and face forward and continue walking.
I say we build this organization to what it can
be instead of abandoning it to die or, worse, murdering it.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
If you think I've invested 32 years of my life to support this organization and
its cause just to see it murdered, you don't know a thing about me or my
beliefs in what this organization is or how it works. I got involved in the
GCFCG when it was the ONLY game in town because I was working FOR Marty in the
late '80s as he worked to found the ICG.
I have worked really hard to stay polite in
this forum, but your continued accusations are completely out of line and you
need to take a step back.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
You were the one who said we should just remove a part of who we are as an
organization of help and you said that we should just accept that people view
as irrelevant. I’m sorry, but that’s simply not how to move
forward. I understand change is hard and you are going through a lot
of changes. There are a lot of people going through a lot of changes, just like
the costuming world has gone through a lot of changes.
So let’s move forward. Let’s embrace the
change. Let’s invite more people to our party! Let’s keep sharing our love of
this hobby with people. Let’s revise these guidelines. Let’s accredit more
events like the OP said. Let’s onboard new chapters. Let’s continue
to help the contest directors, they need it because new events are popping up
every weekend. Let’s inspire more. Let’s create more. Let’s just do
more of all the good things because goodness knows this world needs more good
things than bad things.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
If you want to do good, you don't do it in back rooms behind closed doors. You
get consensus and approach it in a democratic way, which is what I am doing
with my chapter right now.
If you'll excuse me, I have 64 people to
address with this issue, and a membership communication problem to work out
with my chapter. When the ICG President rules on the nearly half dozen motions
on the floor, and my chapter members have been apprised of the situation, I'll
respond to this.
VR
Betsy R. Marks
President, Silicon Web Costumers' Guild
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
What back rooms? What closed doors? There have been none. You have no basis to
make this accusation.
And once again, your conversation has
completely detracted from the original intent.
We need these guidelines or what is the point
of accreditation of contests? We have three right now. We get emails asking to
affiliate with more. We have a document on our website about accrediting
contests. What is the point of all of that if we just remove any
reason to do so?
@Vicky Assarattanakul I
am terribly sorry that your thread got so badly hijacked. I look forward to
when we can in depth look at the accreditation process we have outlined on our
website. Perhaps we need to consider a committee to improve the accreditation
document or procedure? What do you think?
Mera Rose 2 years ago
Um - no. DragonCon’s first event was a
part of WorldCon - ConFederation
in 1986. By 1990 when it hosted Origins, they had come along in
their own realm. They didn’t reject the guidelines, as by 1996 they
were advertising the use of them in their Masquerade, and have done so until
July of this year when they updated their website to remove the use of the term
“ICG Guidelines” because the guidelines were deemed grossly out of date by
their track leadership. For every person that you seem to think
looks at us as the costume police, there are 10 that look to us to take the
authority that they have tried to give us over costume contest
STANDARDIZATION.
I can’t tell you how many of the masquerade
directors and conventioneers wonder where we are when fraud happens in costume
contests, because people are competing for cash prizes in divisions below their
skill level, or why we won’t help them figure out how to do x, y, z, etc. with
their event. We are an organization with an identity crisis.
Marianne and I have tried to spur a
conversation through the guidelines update draft and the 5 year plan
presentation. We want to have this conversation on where the ICG is
and where EVERYONE wants it to go, and I can’t help but feel that many are
watching these conversations thinking that their input might be screamed down
in some way. And those that recognize gas lighting may be saying
“disengage” automatically because of the type of mental abuse it is.
Everyone must be respectful in this
conversation. It’s ok to disagree, it’s not ok to tell people their
opinion or thoughts aren’t valid or shouldn’t be considered for any
reason. I worked with Marty too, at DragonCon
btw. He was all about inclusion. It should be the driving
goal of this organization to be inclusive IMHO.
So please, everyone, write up the ideas you
want to see used in the ICG. Even if you think they’re so far out
that no one will like them, or they’re so new age that no one will vote for
them, or that they are too crazy, too expensive, too involved, require too much
energy... no matter what they are, big or small.
This is YOUR organization too. Not
just Betsy’s, or Jacalyn’s, or mine, or Marianne’s... Speak up, make
your ideas and opinions known, and let’s make it something for everyone here!
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
I do, but unfortunately for you, my own sources are just as private and I am
unable to share. (edited)
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
@Mera Rose here here! I love that Marianne and
you have been so open and are constantly looking for input! This organization
has so much to offer people and you have really shown it. I’ve been
so impressed with both of you going so far out of your way despite of crazy
life crazy to try and reach not only members, but potential
members.
Marianne is always open to new ideas. She has a
young family and a job, but she gets out to talk to just as many people as she
can and I’m impressed that she is able to get to as many events as possible. I
am impressed by you with all your duties as well. I feel like such a slacker!
Keep up the good work!
[10 replies Last reply 2019-09-21 4:57 PM]
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Marianne set the voting period for the guidelines to commence on September 27,
as per her email stating the motion to enter discussion period prior to voting.
It's viewable on the yahoogroups website as well as
the archived BOD slack channel.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
I asked Pierre because he thinks voting starts the 23rd.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
It is in the President's message to the BOD commencing the discussion period.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
15 days from 9/8 is 9/23.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
She allowed for a longer than normal discussion period, despite our already
having 6 months where we were invited to review and discuss the proposal. While
the discussion period is shorter than the time allotted, that's the time she
allotted for it.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
I'm awaiting Pierre's response, thanks.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
To be honest, with the limited amount of discussion, I would be happier to log
my "yes" vote on the 23rd and move us forward in bringing the
guidelines in to the 21st Century and having professional language a
document like that calls for, but unless Marianne wants to change the voting
period from what she stated, this is where we are at.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
This is hardly something you need a parliamentarian for, since it's stated
clearly by Marianne.
Pierre Pettinger 2 years ago
The discussion time and beginning of voting is stated in the Standing Rules.
That would be September 23rd. The extended date is in order, however, it can be
challenged.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
Got it, thanks! Just wanted to be sure we were working with the correct deadline.I gave my chapter until the end of today to
respond to the motion. Posting the responses tomorrow.
[4 replies Last reply 2019-09-23 9:48
AM]
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
So I just checked and all but 3 members of the BOD have joined this channel. As
that has been within the last 7 days, that proves we have a quorum. If they are
not participating in the discussion of the current motion, that is their
prerogative and we have to trust that it is their decision based on their own
reasoning that either there is nothing to discuss and the document is fine for
approval or their complaints/queries have been adequately covered by the
current discussion. However, it does not mean they are not here and thus
somehow we do not have a quorum.
Elaine 2
years ago
That does not change the need for a roll call. One is done at every
meeting. And at the beginning if the month during check
ins. However, since the Sept check ins are on yahoo and
not complete on slack, it does not correlate the discussion,
especially since nothing is behind cross- posted as agreed. Save me the 'but it
was voted on.' That horse is dead. No announcement was made until
around Sept 8th. (edited)
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
1. No it is not dead. The passing vote was in the minutes which have been
available on yahoo and slack for quite some time. The vote is to use Slack
until the proposed ICG Online from the five year plan is implemented. Motion
passed with all but Byron voting yes, and Byron abstained from voting. As the
secretary did her job in reporting the vote, the argument that no announcement
was made is invalid. Here’s a direct link to the minutes on the ICG
website:
http://costume.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/DRAFT_Minutes_of_2019_ICG_Meeting_19May2019.pdf
2. You think the vote to move to slack is moot,
I would state that the claim that we are missing too many people on slack to
form a quorum is also moot. The vast majority of the board is on
slack. To use your own words “that horse is dead”.
3. I would say the idea to cease all
conversation during a debate period on the platform that was voted on is being
done to stop people who are discussing because of the known and recorded
problems with Yahoo Groups.
Elaine 2
years ago
No, I did not say the vote was moot. The vote occurred. The results of the vote
were not published in a forthcoming and public manner, and it wasn't just me! I
have heard from a non-BoD member than NONE of the
lists they are on had any announcement that the vote had passed and the move
was happening. That means that I was not the only BoD
member that was not aware of the changes.
The argument over the move is the dead horse.
The vote was made. Marianne did make the announcement, and gave a final date of
move.
[11 replies Last reply 2019-09-22 9:34
AM]
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Slack allows for polls, and there are anonymous polls. As I’m not sure who all
the BOD members are, so I can’t speak to if all the BOD members are here. As
we’ve been using this for two years to prepare to move off dying yahoo and
voted in the affirmative to move to Slack in March, I’m not sure how to guess
who may not have made their way over yet, but it’s been hardly something done
without member input.
Also sent to the channel
Jeanine Swick 2 years ago
All polls need to be anonymous, nothing more needs to be said on that! No one
needs to know how an elected officer or a chapter rep voted ever.Being
that this has NOT been kept infront of the BoD anywhere over the past 2 years that we were going to
move to Slack at any point in time before this year's meeting what can one
expect?
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Well, I think a case of representatives having their votes known could be
positive, though I don’t feel like arguing that either. However, votes CAN be
anonymous or public on Slack so it’s hardly worth concerning one’s self
over. And there’s been chatter multiple times from people having
difficulty getting yahoo to work, especially for votes. So, it was time to
finalize the move from yahoo. Since 95% of the time yahoo doesn’t
work for me and AOL doesn’t give a care about it and is letting a dead product
die, I’m glad that this group has finally abandoned yahoo like everyone else
did years ago.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
The other benefit is Slack is far more functional than yahoo ever was. There’s
a reason why it’s one of the top business applications today. Between screen
sharing, audio and video conferencing, messaging, channels for sub groups, file
sharing, polls, project management, conversation threading, google docs
integration, collaborative document capabilities, to do lists, reminders, and
more - it should make things far more functional for committees, the Board,
members who want to work together on group costumes, and more.A
lot of conventions are now using Slack or the more gamer oriented (but free for
those that aren’t non profits) Discord. They are both
built on the old IRC system so the learning curve is short for a whole lot of
function.
Jeanine Swick 2 years ago
Why do you think it is necessary for the reps votes to be
known? There is no reason at all I can see other than it being held
against a chpter sometime in the future if they voted
against something and it was defeated. Their vote is between them and their
chapter's direction only. The records only need to show it that chapter or
officer voted and nothing else.
Vicky Assarattanakul 2 years ago
Anonymous voting also encourages people to vote honestly. I would not be comfortable
with my vote being public, especially regarding the topics currently under
discussion.
Jeanine Swick 2 years ago
Same here.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
I’m just saying that there’s a benefit to it. However, since there’s
anonymous voting, it’s hardly worth concerning yourself over. I always tell how
I vote so that people can know if I’m adequately representing them. But that’s
me liking accountability. Again, since there’s anonymous voting on slack, there’s
no need for you to worry. Of course I thought that the voting on yahoo was
open. But I haven’t been able to get a poll to work on there in ages
so have been having to message the President my vote.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
I actually consider my vote being known far more honest but that’s me. Congress
has to be public votes and I like it because I can know who is a crappy
representative. But that’s me and I come from the DC area so I’m totally
willing to say this is a personal opinion.
Mera Rose 2 years ago
Actually, the bylaws don’t allow for anonymous voting and, as is implied that
we did not change our bylaws or standing rules to allow for anonymous voting,
votes must be counted and are only permitted by certain persons who are
recognized members or officers, so voting anonymously can’t happen because the
member or officer must be known.
2 files
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
I
honestly thought that our votes were open. I don’t really see any reason to
make them anonymous. I wouldn’t necessarily vote no on a measure to allow them
to be anon. However, I would prefer to have a compelling reason
given to vote anonymous as well.