Messages in ICG #boardofdirectors (Slack) <2019-11-18 2019-11-20>

2019-11-19

Jeanine Swick 4:56 AM
No, she has just been stating the facts and Standing Rules that we are supposed to operate by. It is not her fault that some seem to think that they don't apply to them.

Jeanine Swick 5:15 AM
One does not have a good record off of this platform to easily go back to for reference. Posts can be edited after the fact and/or deleted. That is one of the reasons why I do not favor this platform for our business communications.

Betsy R. Marks 6:07 AM
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and there is no point where I have asked anyone to "shut up" because that IS rude.

I have, however, addressed bullying, and I will continue to do so as long as I see it on this or any platform.

As for the repeated calls from the LACE representative, I will take her comments exactly as written, and under advisement.

I will point out two things:

First: It was possible to gather a complete, unaltered archive of Yahoo Groups' content with a $25 software utility, which I am continuing to operate until we switch to whatever platform we select, at which point, with the help of the Tech Chair, we will dump to the appropriate places for maintaining our records.

Secondly: As the ICG Acting President has already mentioned, no such archive will be possible should Slack be sold to some other company, and the cost to archive a single channel on this platform is too exorbitant to be considered viable, which means that once we move here permanently, odds are excellent we will lose the ability to maintain our archives for the future. Nobody foresaw the Yahoo sale to Verizon or its impact when we set up accounts on eGroups three decades ago. Sticking with this platform longterm could easily cost us our history.

That is why we are looking at moving onto a more practical longterm solution. Web access to Yahoo Groups ends December 14, and in that sense we do have an urgent need to make a move elsewhere. I believe Slack is not the best and only option we have, simply because we are here.

[2 replies Last reply 2019-11-19 7:38 AM]

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Response to secondly: clarification –

Since discovering the cost associated with exporting private channels, I’ve spent over 30 hours working with Slack and their tech committee to ensure that I understand what can be done to make this system work for the ICG’s needs.

BoD and General are public channels and can be backed up by JSON.

Chapter channels can be private or public and remain the duty of the chapter to back up if they are private. They’re included in the JSON backup if they’re public.

Budget, Finance, and other committees have the secretaries or treasurer in their private channels and should be reporting monthly through minutes to the public channel, so that record would also be public and would be backed up in the JSON. If the chairman of those committees wish to export the entire text conversation they can do so through the select all/copy/paste function.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Tech help - not committee, apologies, not enough coffee this morning apparently.

Randy Smith 6:37 AM
Betsy, it is simple to backup/archive any chat channel you wish from slack. And completely free to do so. You can export any channel/conversation using the standard export tool available to the admins.

[35 replies Last reply 2019-11-19 8:08 AM]

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Yes. And there’s a reason why Slack is a top tier resource used by businesses both small and large. Even Google uses it, which says something since they have 1. Email 2, Drive 3. An Online Office suite 4. An e-mail loop similar to yahoo groups. 5. They are the name in searching.

When we were researching things several years ago, slack took the clear lead. Mostly due to just how good it is for corporations and the fact they gave us their middle grade tier for free. Discord was the other option that was high up, but as the two are effectively the same app, Slack was the winner simply because of the business applications we needed for the BOD. We could have a chat server on discord, but we decided that one app was enough, especially since they really are effectively the same but with different focuses.

Of course, there weren’t any complaints about Slack until a couple of months ago. It was announced well in advance that we were voting to move at the March meeting, and the vote was practically unanimous. (Only one abstention.) It was then put in the meeting minutes and sent out to all of the bod reps and general membership on a variety of platforms.

It is great to live in a time where we have excellent business tools to actually make things easier for us to do business considering we are an international corporation. Easier and more streamlined communication means work gets done faster and we can all go back to our next cosplay builds faster!

(Also I love how easy it is to see what my fellow ICG members are doing thanks to Slack! I’m hoping more people start using the WIP and costume photos channels!!!)

Randy Smith 2 years ago
I agree

Judy Mitchell 2 years ago
"Of course, there weren’t any complaints about Slack until a couple of months ago.

"Because that was when it's usage became very active and we could see how it works. Aside from it cutting people out who have trouble using it (wow in seeing a lot of "I've got mine so f-you" attitude here, i thought we were better than that)

i am disturbed by the deletion issues. For example on yahoo if a moderator deleted a post for some reason you could tell because the message numbering of anything deleted was missing- and there was the extra aspect that it went out in email so people that save their email that would still show a post that had been deleted.

However in Slack, when a moderator deletes posts (and dont think i haven't noticed that it's been done, because i have), that history is gone forever. That is very dangerous in some hands; easy for someone to say "prove it" if they've deleted evidence (please note: I'm speaking hypothetically, I'm not making an accusation), that is the failsafe of a double web based/email option system.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
This is incorrect. As the settings and permissions are currently set, only admins and owners can delete comments, but any comment deleted is part of the JSON backup including the information stating who wrote the comment and who deleted it. Editing, as you’ve seen, is no longer allowed. Admins now include only the parliamentarian, web admins, and secretaries, and owners are me and the tech committee chairman.

Elaine 2 years ago
No. it cannot be done. The AP has already investigated it

[image1.png]

Elaine 2 years ago
*edit (since I can't edit for some reason)
There is no free export.

Elaine 2 years ago
Where would you find the nearly $800 per MONTH to be able to export these channels?

Mera Rose 2 years ago
And JSON is now backed up on public channels weekly. And the ability to create private channels have been removed. Public channels are free to back up. Only the private channels cost anything to back up. The archived board of directors channel is the only private channel and is not to be used.

Elaine 2 years ago
Wrong. There are multiple private committee channels.

Randy Smith 2 years ago
I was unaware of that issue, my apologies.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Chapter channels. If the chapters want to back them up, then they will need to find a way to do so. They can archive the private ones and make public channels which can be included in the JSON back ups.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
@Randy Smith - this information is not being presented correctly. This is not an issue. Further investigation and clarification with Slack after that message was shared with the BoD. Public channels - which a cursory review of our channels shows only 2 that are private - silicon web and archived board of directors, can be backed up on our non-profit plan for free.

Elaine 2 years ago
Again, WRONG

Elaine 2 years ago
There are private committee channels!

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Meaning that Slack is the only free platform.

Elaine 2 years ago
but whatever, you only see what you want to see. I'm done.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Please name them Elaine

Judy Mitchell 2 years ago
Sorry: I'm using the term "moderator" instead of "admin". I know full well that the admins have the power to edit and delete, but when it happens the average reader cant tell it's been done. The JSON backup isnt exactly like scrolling back through the yahoo archive: easily done by any user. And course i have used the search function looking for posts, so no need to suggest it.

Randy Smith 2 years ago
I understand that private channels are not eligible for export. But most of the channels here can be backed up.Elaine, relax. We are all on the same team.

Elaine 2 years ago
Budget, Finance (why there are two I don't know), there are also other chapter channels

Randy Smith 2 years ago
Chapter channels have been stated as being private.

Elaine 2 years ago
No apparently we are not all on the same team. I have been trying for 6 months to point out that while there are changes that must be made to keep the ICG current and relevant, there are also published policies and procedures that MUST be adhered to, and there have been more incidences than I can count where every time one of these is brought up, I am told to basically shut up, why am I causing trouble and being difficult or /'obstructionist' (not my words, see LACE rep's uncalled for commentary)I want to see the ICG succeed, but this is not the way.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
I’ve spent over 30 hours working with Slack and their tech committee to ensure that I understand what can be done to make this system work for the ICG’s needs. BoD and General are public channels and can be backed up by JSON.

Chapter channels can be private or public and remain the duty of the chapter to back up if they are private. They’re included in the JSON backup if they’re public.

Randy Smith 2 years ago
I found Yahoo groups to be difficult to use, and actually prefer slack to discord and others I have used. It really is just user preference and taking the time to learn the software.I do not understand the hostility being shown by people. No one is being attacked, we are all trying to work together. Elaine, I do not know you yet. But from your posts so far, you come across as very harsh and abrasive. I am Sure that is not your intention, but sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it.

Elaine 2 years ago
My posts so far? This is the first time you've seen me post since you joined. Maybe you should go back to July and start reading. I was not abrasive until backed into a corner.

Elaine 2 years ago
I don't take kindly to being attacked.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Elaine - the entire channel history is available for anyone to read, and from the sound of it, Randy has done so.

Randy Smith 2 years ago
No one is attacking you. I have read earlier posts, I am not ignorant to the situation at hand.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Also, Elaine - no one is attacking you. You are making accusations that we are not acting in the best interest of the guild, and I would like to hear your reasons for that. I invite you to share them so that they can be discussed appropriately. The ICG must work together to resolve all concerns as thoroughly as possible. Please speak yours so that they can be discussed, but know that responses are not attacking - they seek to understand, clarify, or address your concerns.

Randy Smith 2 years ago
Everyone is trying to keep things civil and above board. There is no need to take things personally.

Also sent to the channel

Elaine 2 years ago
And this, right here, is EXACTLY why Slack is not an appropriate method for communication. Any admin can choose to delete a message.

NOT APPROPRIATE, as this is supposed to be open to all members as a permanent record of all board activity.

So, again, I will state that I have been trying for 6 months to point out that while there are changes that must be made to keep the ICG current and relevant, there are also published policies and procedures that MUST be adhered to, and there have been more incidences than I can count where every time one of these is brought up, I am told to basically shut up, why am I causing trouble and being difficult or /'obstructionist' (not my words, see LACE rep's uncalled for commentary)I want to see the ICG succeed, but this is not the way.

Randy Smith 2 years ago
Reposted?

Mera Rose 2 years ago
And posted in general.

This is not correct. The LACE rep’s (Elaine Mami) comment was directed at Betsy Marks in her capacity as Silicon Web President, and was a call for her to resign as she stated that she feels Betsy has instigated these issues. It was NOT directed at Elaine Sims. Also, the admins are the web admins, secretaries, and parliamentarian, and owners, Phil Gust, tech committee chairman, and myself are the only ones who can delete comments, and no one can edit comments. The delete permissions come with the roles and all back up files show when a comment was deleted and who deleted it. All persons with permissions to delete comments are instructed to note if a comment is deleted that is not associated with installation and testing of apps and note why the comment was deleted.

Issues brought up are being managed in the BoD channel and everyone is invited to view that conversation at #boardofdirectors . Emails to each member on their email address of record with the factual information regarding issues currently before the board will be sent out shortly.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Now - the issue with “unadulterated records”, records having been deleted or edited, etc, is done. It’s been addressed with the correct information and will not be discussed further. Please read the factual information regarding those with the ability to change files. If you feel that Phil, me, the Assarantankul’s, Jacalyn, Pierre, Patrick, or Anne have any reason to edit or delete a comment then you may contact us. If a comment is edited or deleted then we will post a reason as to why for everyone to see, and the record in the JSON file will be made available for those who request it.

This is the end of this topic of discussion.

Randy Smith 2 years ago
Thank you Mera, for the info

Randy Smith 6:50 AM
I can't help but feel that people just aren't educated on the software. It is a simple, effective platform. All it takes is a little time to adjust, and it should suit or needs perfectly fine.

[4 replies Last reply 2019-11-19 11:50 AM]

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
It is very easy! I was able to walk one of our oldest members through how to use it in a half hour phone call so she could vote and see the various ways to chat with people. I am asked all the time for recommendations. I posted this to my Facebook just earlier today that totally backs up what you just said. https://scalefactor.com/scaleblog/why-your-small-business-could-benefit-from-using-slack/

Bruce Mai 2 years ago
There's your answer right there. While we've been talking about Slackl for quite a long time, the simple fact is that there needed to be a lot of handholding for individuals. So while it may have appeared that we all knew about the transition, there was still a perception that people were thrown to the wolves because of the imminent changes to Yahoo.

For a long time, we've been used to moving at a glacial pace. Sometimes, this was good, but with the speed of instant communications we have now, this has people talking over each other in a way we would not in person.

What appeals to people with Yahoo is the fact that you could just hit "Reply" to an email. Now, we have to go out to Slack and dig through multiple thread. Also, if Randy wants to wade through past messages, some people were and still are having trouble accessing the ICG-BOD list by computer, rather than email. The problem seems to mostly be Yahoo. is not the friendlies to mobile devices (and no, I'm not saying EVERYONE - clearly, there's a software issue).

Bottom line, there will continue to be resistance with an unfamiliar platform that not everyone is comfortable with or has accessed yet. And with all the emotional reactions that aren't' even Slack-related are just one symptom resulting from having to make the transition.. As Board members, we need to help facilitate this transition as best we can until we can find a better alternative.

Randy Smith 2 years ago
Agreed

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Well said! I feel like this has devolved in to “Let’s argue about a venue for our arguing for the sake of arguing” which is counter productive. I think moving forward is the key. We do need to facilitate the transition. And who knows, maybe it will turn out to be great! But we need to move forward because looking backwards doesn’t actually help anything. Mostly it just means you are going to hit something in front of you. Or worse, you will fall off the stage. Please, no one fall off the stage.

Randy Smith 6:50 AM
Our needs, sorry for the typo

Betsy R. Marks 7:31 AM
We also qualify for these services for free:https://www.google.com/nonprofits/offerings/apps-for-nonprofits/

Betsy R. Marks 7:33 AM
And we already have an account with Google, fully qualified and free because of our nonprofit status.

As the Silicon Web has at least half a dozen members who only use email, and our chapter is exclusively online, it is in our chapter's best interest to explore all options.

[6 replies Last reply 2019-11-19 8:06 AM]

Randy Smith 2 years ago
This means you have 5 or 6 people who only use email. If that odd their choice, that is fine. We have over 400+ members, correct? Is it in the organization's best interest to bend to the needs of 5 or 6 members? I am confused once again at the validity of this argument.

Judy Mitchell 2 years ago
Northern Lights also has quite a few members who prefer email based to slack. We run our chapter discussions via the ICG web site email listserv option. We had a big discussing about our communications last year and it was very pronounced decision to stay with email.

Jeanine Swick 2 years ago
There are many more than 5 or 6 who prefer email. Having unadulterated records are very important. Not to mention a reliable and searchable archive of every message going back to the beginning of the BoD online messages.

Randy Smith 2 years ago
If that was the majority vote of your chapter, that is good. Glad to know you are serving their needs. But the vote of the majority within ICG is for using Slack. Please respect the decision by the organization, even if you disagree with it.

Randy Smith 2 years ago
What I find interesting is that there are records kept, and there is a searchable archive. Though it doesn't necessarily go back to the beginning of the ICG, it is quite comprehensive. The only people who have access to delete records are admins, as has been stated on numerous occasions. Even then, the delete records are tracked.

Your issues are valid, but they have been addressed. I have read them repeatedly. We are all here for the same reason, we love costuming. All of this bickering does nothing towards that purpose.

This is the end of this topic of discussion.

Betsy R. Marks 8:23 AM
Point of Order: This is intended to be the discussion period for some five separate motions on the floor simultaneously. Instead of discussing the motions, members of this board are explicitly attacking other members of the board rather than discussing the motions on the floor, and the Acting President is not addressing this breach of decorum and debate. Ad hominem attacks have no business in a debate, a point on which Robert's Rules is quite clear.

If there was ever an illustration of the problem with the way the ICG's business is operating, this is it.

[1 reply Last reply 2019-11-19 8:24 AM]

Mera Rose 2 years ago
I have been drafting a response for most of the morning as you, Jeanine, and Elaine have been driving yet another heated discussion over the use of slack.

The current issue at hand is that, yet again, 3 individuals are trying to control the conversation and not allowing time for anyone to process what has occurred, in spite of my polite reminders that the temporary communication policy says that everyone needs to step away after presenting information and allow others time to respond.

As there is no specific enforcement given to permit that to happen, the only option I currently have is to revoke access to those who continue to create this heated debate and refuse to allow time for others to respond.

So - if this continued stream of comments continues after I state this warning to step back and give time, I will remove access for 24 hours from those who are continuing to comment without allowing time for others to process.

Vicky Assarattanakul 12:52 PM
For the Board's information, Jacalyn Boggs has been anonymously nominated for the position of Vice President.

[5 replies Last reply 2019-11-21 8:46 PM]

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Thank you for posting. I just received it too.

Also sent to the channel

Jennifer Old-d'Entremont, KCCG President 2 years ago

I will support the nomination of Jacalyn Boggs for Vice President. If there is concern regarding the anonymous nature of the nomination, then I would happily make the nomination myself. Otherwise, please add my seconding of the nomination to the pile.

Jennifer Old-d'Entremont, KCCG President 2 years ago

Jennifer Old-d'Entremont, President and BoD Representative for the Kansas City Costumers' Guild

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Thank you Jennifer! @Vicky Assarattanakul - there is now a public and a private nomination and public second as well.

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Thanks @Jennifer Old-d'Entremont, KCCG President :)

Randy Smith 1:00 PM
I second the nomination. I think she would make an excellent choice for VP.

Mera Rose 1:01 PM
Jacalyn Boggs has been nominated for VP. @Jacalyn Boggs - do you accept the nomination?

[1 reply Last reply 2019-11-19 102 PM]

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Yes