Messages in ICG #boardofdirectors (Slack) <2019-11-14 2019-11-19>
Judy
Mitchell 9:59
AM
(This has already been cross-posted on yahoo) Northern Lights met
yesterday (this past Sunday) and went over all the Motions currently on file.
There was great concern about the many motions and discussions regarding
spending monies that are not budgeted for.They want
to know exactly why the NoVa rep seems to feel there
is such a rush to buy insurance, hire lawyers, and join lawyer groups, when to
the best of the Bod's knowledge, and the general membership's, there is no
emergency or reason to not follow our normal routine of budgeting and voting at
the general meeting. They are not saying that none of these are worth
considering, just that they are not happy at the 'emergency' rushing. And
telling them that the NoVA rep felt her chapter
considered it important, with no explanation why, was not an acceptable reason
to bypass our usual routines.
We
have members in different time zones, different countries, and different
amounts of online availability. There are reasons why out procedures were set
in the manner they were: its called fairness to all.
There
are votes coming up soon involving the spending of monies that have not been
approved in our annual budget, i ask the other reps
to keep this in mind when voting.
12 replies Last reply 2019-11-19 8:09 AM]
kevin.p.roche 2 years ago
I can say (having gone through this with Worldcon) that the time to price and
obtain B&O* liability insurance is before you need it.
*Board and Officers. It is a policy designed in particular to cover claims
resulting from mistakes (as opposed to malfeasance) on the part of said parties
doing their best to fulfill their roles.
kevin.p.roche 2 years ago
However -- like any other policy, it is something that should be shopped for,
reviewed, and then purchased, rather than rushed into.
Mera Rose 2 years ago
I guess I’m confused as to how it’s a rush? She made motions and
we’re in a normal 15 day discussion period before a 15 day vote. Just
like the one regarding policies, any amendments can still be made. If
you want to amend to change the language like the motion to amend did for
policies then you can, of course. There were concerns that were
presented and she took action she had been advised was in the best interests of
her chapter and the guild. I assigned motion numbers as is standard. They’ll
be voted through or voted down, which is normal procedure. As for
joining Maryland Non-Profits, it’s a less costly option that provides lots of
benefits for the guild and it’s chapters. $100 is not an
unreasonable cost for the benefits.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Yeah Maryland nonprofits is very fairly priced! Excellent find, Mera!!!
Mera Rose 2 years ago
Thank Sarah! (@Dragan Rose ) She found them first! Lol. They
have really great resources.
Dragan Rose 2 years ago
I am hoping to use the MD non-profit network for Costume-Con 40.
1
Judy Mitchell 2 years ago
I do remember that Sarah suggested the MD non-profit group to you, and they do
sound like they could be very helpful. That is not the issue.
Also sent to the channel
Randy Smith 2 years ago
As was stated by Kevin. The time to buy insurance isn't when you need it...
it's before it is needed. I apologize ahead of time if I come off strongly, as
I know our chapter is the newest to this organization, and you have yet to get
to know me or our chapter.
However, situations like the insurance and
lawyers are not things to wait and take care of at a later date. These are
items which should probably have been handled a long time ago, and as such, we
need to rectify the situation by handling these issues with haste (though I do
not propose rushing into anything blindly).There does seem to be quite a few
motions on the BoD that need to be handled, and this
may cause concern, but this means that things are getting done. This is a good
thing and in my opinion forward progress should not be frowned upon.
It is my understanding that each chapter has an
ICG representative sitting on the Board, and therefore each chapter has a say
in the actions of the board, to include the motions currently on the table. I
also understand the difference between procedures and routines. The latter of
which causes more trouble than it does good.
I find it difficult to understand the
resistance to handling issues such as these. They are something that should
have been taken care of years ago, but wasn't. Now someone has had the
initiative to work towards handling the problem, yet there are members of the
board who would rather fall back and wait until the next annual meeting to
bring the issue up for a vote... placing us in further jeopardy should an
actual emergency arise.
I ask, why? Are we not all represented here?
Has time not been given for discussion? Has procedure not been followed? There
are things that are going to fall out of the norm for any organization,
unplanned problems will always arise. Isn't that why we are here as BoD members? to openly discuss and handle these issues?
My chapter members and I are quite perplexed by
this resistance, and hope that it is simply a fleeting moment of concern and
not a resistance to change.
Judy Mitchell 2 years ago
(already cross-posted with yahoo)
Judy Mitchell 2 years ago
In answer to Mera's question of how things are being
rushed, 5 motions that were put forth by the same single motioner
within about 24 hours, that came out of nowhere, demanding
implementation extremely quickly (such as not being brought before the
membership annual meeting with no urgency discussed to account for such haste)
and insisting on the spending of monies without becoming a budget item (even
when the archives needs something that costs less than having a lawyer draft
policies, they have to submit it to the budget and wait for the annual meeting
for approval) feels very rushed to my chapter. I am not denying that these
motions have the proper discussion and voting period allotted, although there
is one issue in which the voting period is being foreshortened.
For members' convenience, I am refering to: motion 11-6-2019-1 which was originally to be
implemented by Jan 31, 2020, motion 11-7-2019-1 which is to be
implemented by Jan 1 2020, motion 11-7-2019-2 which does not specify
implementation dates, and motion 11-7-2019-3 which implies immediate
implementation because the motioner is confused by
multiple discussion platforms. Motion 11-9-2019-1 has no implementation date
specified.
And while there is no motion made, our
Acting-President has stated on Nov 13 "If any BoD
objects to this expenditure, please do so in the next 7 days (by 11/20/2019). If
there is no objection by this date, then I ask the treasurer to make payment to
Maryland Non-Profits in the amount of $100 to become a member organization able
to access their benefits for 2019, as a line item entitled “legal and
consulting services” in the 2019 budget and continuing for 2020 and
beyond."
It is too late for things to be in the 2019
budget, it should wait for the 2020 budget, and I believe the timing is very
tight to even do that, but Jeanine Swick would best know the time table for
submitting budgetary requests.
Judy Mitchell 2 years ago
In the past when similar issues that change the budget come up we have had more
participation and input by bringing it before the membership at the annual
meeting, or by giving a group enough time to research and return a
recommendation. It could be that a member who is caught up in
something and not paying attention for a month has experience in, for example,
knowing what kind of insurance we need and don’t need, or in writing harassment
policies. The motions that were made don’t allow for this
participation or research, they demand altering the budget and research the
best and cheapest option in weeks or a month timeframe. It’s
important, but it’s also complicated and worth doing right rather than wasting
money getting it wrong and leaving us spending money on things that don’t
actually cover our needs.
According to the ICG's Standing Rules, there
are procedures outlined for operating in an online environment, which we have
done since roughly the late 1990s. The format was determined to be best
operated with a time frame that allowed for individuals to check in as needed,
but that major business would be conducted at our annual meeting, held at
Costume-Con each year.
Even at the peak of Yahoo's groups, many of our
board members checked email irregularly, and that's still the way things are
today. Many are not able to read anything during work hours and sometimes those
work hours extend to weekends or evenings. A reasonably large number of our
older members don't own smart phones. For them and in general, most business is
conducted with a 15-day discussion period and 15-day voting period AFTER a
subject has been discussed enough to justify making a motion to deal with it.
That's where these sudden motions appear to be
coming from nowhere, with no apparent reason. Nobody has asked WHY it's
necessary to have a lawyer review and write these issues. In fact, our founders
went out of their way to use the legal profession from within, pro bono, as
much as possible specifically to avoid the cost. The last time we spent a
substantial amount of money on our organization's paperwork, we were dividing
the ICG from the GCFCG and separating both from the organization and income
from CC3.
That was some 35 years ago or so.
Why is it so important to you that these
motions proceed at this moment, without waiting for the conclusions from the
GCFCG's investigation into allegations of abuse? Considering there are at least
five individuals under investigation at this time, I would think you would want
an answer to those allegations first.
Assuming that all individuals who have been
invited to join a platform are actually paying attention to it at all times is
as simple as looking at little green dots on this platform.
You can't, however, see who has NEVER checked in here.
A substantial number of the members of this platform still use the Yahoo Groups
system, because of the aforementioned reasons.
Those messages are posted by the Corresponding Secretary (at present, because
the Recording Secretary has been out of town and away from her computer for the
bulk of the last two weeks) once or twice a day.
So, yes, representatives are supposed to be paying attention, but not at the
speed of chat.
Mera Rose 2 years ago
Thank you for clarifying. I appreciate your candor.
Jeanine
Swick 5:12
PM
No not every BoD member is on Slack regularly for
many reasons.
Randy
Smith 5:33
PM
Isn't it the duty of the ICG rep to remain informed on BoD
business? and isn't this the main hub of information for the discussion of the BoD here on Slack?
I
may be new, so I may have a misunderstanding of this, but if you are elected or
appointed as a BoD member, isn't it your duty to
check in on slack regularly?
Judy
Mitchell 6:34
PM
Randy, that is the meat of one of the many motions: to move all things here to
the Slack channel, instead of doubling with the original yahoogroup.
The problem is that there are people who do not have easy access to Slack, or
don't wish to change. Slack is showing that it may not be the best option for
us to use (yahoogroups has it's
own issues, especially with the soon-to-happen demise of all but group postings
via email) but that can be visited at a later time.
In
the meantime, some of the BoD reps that don't use
slack have alternates to cast their votes over here. There is also the issue
that our Standing Rules require us to have member transparency even in the BoD channel - any member can read, they just can't vote and
shouldn't speak up - I know my chapter has people who prefer yahoogroups for this. You see, yahoogroups
allows (and will soon only) delivery by email to your inbox, which many people
prefer, and it allows for an accurate saving of messages; while slack can only
be viewed on smartphones, tables & web. Not everyone is able to handle
that.
Betsy
R. Marks 6:51
PM
This is feedback I've gotten so far regarding Slack, from the summary of the
motions on the floor that I gave my chapter members last Friday. I wanted to
make sure they had some time to respond before the first vote is due (this
Friday):
1.
Kevin Roche: "Comment: based on my experiences using Slack for Worldcon
76, while it is a very useful tool for small nimble teams (mostly in one time
zone) to coordinate things, it does not work well for coordinating general
business or acting as a meeting for a group distributed across multiple time
zones, age, technical familiarity, and connectivity.
If
you are not used to using threaded communications it can be confusing, and,
more importantly, one's replies can end up unread in the wrong thread.
It
also, because of it's semi-instant "chat"
nature, is easily prone to amplification and flame wars.
I
would recommend a NO vote on motion 3."
2.
Anonymous: "No. I cannot keep track of topic conversations. Like Kevin
said, while threading is helpful, it's not perfect. And it make replies easy to
miss, especially if you didn't comment on the thread to begin with. (I only get
a 'new' notification on threads that I've marked for following or that I've
commented on). Not helpful. We've also seen the results of the chat-like
presentation first hand.”
There
was a documented time when the ICG-BOD list was restricted to three comments on
any subject by the same person PER DAY, because of the volume of information
being put forth and the difficulty with tracking said content. Three-post
restrictions make the poster stop and think about what's being said, to whom,
and why.
It's
tempting to abuse the privilege of an always-on, always-available platform you
carry around in your hand, but I have friends who still regularly ignore their
email for days if not weeks at a time and refuse to use more modern platforms
for anything except work, which they refuse to use for any other reasons.
Expecting
those individuals to turn on a dime and change their online behavior is ageist
and exclusionary. For an organization that wants to welcome everyone, we do a
disservice to those of us who are not willing or interested in adopting
technology, especially if it devolves into flame wars or angry
misunderstandings.
At
present, my chapter is leaning heavily toward either Google Enterprise (which
the ICG can access for free because of our nonprofit status) or Groups.io,
with additional platforms for side discussions. We haven't made decisions yet
because we're all working and because I've collected our archives already, so
we're not in danger of losing what we had, so long as we have everyone's valid
email address. Change is coming, though, and it's my hope we'll start the migration
process by the end of this month, so that we're on a different platform at the
start of December or at the very least, the start of the new year.
Jeanine
Swick 6:57
PM
There are also members who are in areas where the service access to the web is
not the fastest. Where I live we will never get anything like FIOS or similar
offered., you sometimes lose when living in small towns in ruralish
areas.
Judy
Mitchell 6:58
PM
I had spoken with Pierre a little bit ago, and expressed my concern that maybe
Slack isn't the best for us (considering that i was
previously in favor of it). He also mentioned groups.io even though
he wasn't familiar with it. He thinks the SLCG uses it? From the little I've
seen it looks like it delivers to inboxes which could be just what we need.
[1 reply Last reply 2019-11-19 8:08 AM]
Mera Rose 2 years ago
Groups.io has an associated fee structure.
Randy
Smith 6:58
PM
I for one, can say that I would be very much against delivery to my email. I
already have enough email going in and out that I have to sift through daily
and it would lead to more confusion. Yahoo Groups may have been good in it's day, but it has become outdated and is about to
basically go away. Slack is just as easy to access as yahoo groups,
as both are accessed through any web browser. So I still do not understand the
resistance to change.
In
my dealings with other organizations I have learned that it is simple, if you
are unable to handle the duties of a given position than you should remove
yourself from that position and pass it onto someone who can handle the duties.
The ICG BoD chose to use Slack, so that is the
platform designated for use. If an ICG rep does not have access to Slack then
they are unable to handle the duties of an ICG rep, as the main duty of that
position is the discussion of business on this very platform.
If
they simply choose that they do not want to change, then we should question why
they do not wish to do their duty as an ICG BoD rep
and what action needs to be taken by their chapter to insure proper
representation on the Board. This is not ageism, nor is it meant to
exclusionary.
Betsy,
while I can understand Kevin's statement. It seems to come from not completely
understanding the software, perhaps education on the software is what is
required.
So
what you are saying is that your Chapter is going to use a different online
chat system because the members do not wish to use an online chat system? I
guess I'm lost at this logic.
I
think having access is the key to communication. On
[1 reply Last reply 2019-11-26 1:40 PM]
Dawn McKechnie 2
years ago
I again will state that I don't understand why we (the ICG)
doesn't implement a forums based system as part of the main ICG website.
It could have; 1) FAQ based sub-forums open to the public. 2) members
only sub-forums 3) board and committee sub-forums 4) chapter and SIG
sub-forums. 5 any other type really, learning, progress sharing, etc. 6)
OPTIONAL subscriptions to email copies of posts.
Randy
Smith 6:59
PM
Well, I wasn't finished with the post... lol
Randy
Smith 7:00
PM
I would like to once again state my dislike for moving to an email based
system.
[1 reply Last reply 2019-11-18 7:07 PM]
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Email is very old school. Mine is all garbage
Anne
Davenport 7:05
PM
I've said this before on other threads, but it's worth repeating .... another
non-costume group that I'm on jumped from Yahoo! to groups.io last
year and have been very happy with it, especially the tech support. It
is similar enough to Yahoo! that the change wasn't too traumatic.
[1 reply Last reply 2019-11-26 1:33 PM]
Dawn McKechnie 2 years ago
That information may never be used here but
it's good information to have. Thank you for sharing Anne. -Dawn
Betsy
R. Marks 7:06
PM
Unfortunately, the meeting and presentation where Slack was offered as a
possible option was underattended and there wasn't a lot of follow-up after the
meeting, which is part of the reason why a bulk of our business on list
revolves around discussion, and motions tend to be dealt with at the Annual
meeting.
Not
everyone is able to attend Costume-Con each year, but for issues where big
changes are needed, those changes are discussed far enough in advance that the
members can then provide proxy votes to the annual meeting, and then the
changes can be discussed in real time and voted on there.
That's
how it's been with ICG business for most of its 30 year history. And with good
reason: For the vast majority of people who belong to the ICG, this is a hobby,
or if it's a profession, then the people involved are costuming, not dealing
with politics at all.There are a handful of people
who have devoted a good chunk of their lives to the back-end running of the
organization. Throwing them under the bus because it's moving too fast for them
to adjust is the antithesis of what the ICG is about, and is unnecessarily
exclusionary and hostile.
As
for receiving everything in email, that's unnecessary with both platforms the
Silicon Web is exploring. They both have online interfaces (similar to what
Yahoo had before they messed with the platform), so that will still feel the
same. We have a small percentage of people who don't receive email at all. For
them, having a system that can be both threaded and unthreaded is important.
With
the ICG, this channel (and the one that was made private in error that preceded
it) are supposed to be available to all ICG members, even if only Board members
are allowed to vote on it. That is also how the meetings are run at CC. Or at
least, that's how they're supposed to run. Business conducted behind closed
doors is supposed to be only for dealing with personnel issues, never with
general business.
And
unfortunately, the vote to switch to Slack was handled after the main business
meeting concluded, behind closed doors, and outside of the range of the general
membership.
Randy
Smith 7:12
PM
I don't mean to sound hostile or exclusionary. Just pragmatic.
6 replies Last reply 2019-11-23 8:45 PM]
kevin.p.roche 2
years ago
Randy (and others) -- my comments (copied in Betsy's summary) about Slack are
based on years of working with multi-generational non-profit fan groups. It's
my experience that you have to have multiple communications streams to reach
everybody. This became especially apparent to me while chairing Worldcon 76.
Also, something that many newer members don't
realize is that the structure of ICG was originally set up as a weak
federation, with most authority invested in the chapters and the BOD set up to
handle umbrella functions. As an example, when we obtained our 501(c)3 status
and detailed the requirements for chapters to benefit from that via the GEL
process, two chapters left rather than share their financials as required with
the board.
This year we've had more activist BOD officers
(activist being used with no value judgement, simply an adjective) which may
all in all be a good thing, but those long time members who are accustomed to a less activist
board need time to not only weigh in, but to buy into the changes.
I believe that switching all communications to
a new format with no provision for those members not ready for it does not
serve those members well.
By way of another example, I am also
webmaster/ecommerce head for another very creative club with demographics that
skew strongly to retirees. Even getting them to an electronic newsletter and
online sales is an ongoing struggle. Trying to shift to a more social tool like
Slack would be a non-starter with them.
I think planning and developing multiple
streams to reach the maximum number of members is really important (especially
when we have another whole set of tools already available to us.)
Randy Smith 2 years ago
Kevin, I can appreciate your point of view.
Mera Rose 2 years ago
I would still like to talk with you more regarding G-Suite Kevin... would
you be available for a call at some point?
Mera Rose 2 years ago
I’d like to be able to log in and see what you are talking about also... CostumeCon was a bit ago and it’s not fresh in my memory.
kevin.p.roche 2 years ago
I have to see if we've got the login problems
solved with costume.org
Mera Rose 2 years ago
Let me know whenever... I can have you log in on my computer through
a screen share app to show me stuff if it helps. I remember it had a
lot of options that I liked when you showed me at CostumeCon,
just can’t remember what they were for the life of me.
Betsy
R. Marks 7:12
PM
Also unfortunately, our chapter (Silicon Web) was not officially represented
because our chapter rep was unable to attend the meeting or assign anyone else
to participate in his stead, so we weren't aware of what happened until well
after the meeting and the election that put me on the BOD.
3 replies Last reply 2019-11-21 9:39 PM]
Ninka 2 years ago
Non-voting member here. Just to clarify your
statement Betsy, I had volunteered to attend the meeting for the chapter, more
than once, but no one responded to my emails.
Jeanine Swick 2 years ago
Kevin had planned to be there but his travel
plans got mucked up while in transit and he was not able to get word to anyone
in time. So you offer couldn't help.
kevin.p.roche 2 years ago
To clarify, what was supposed to be a 5 hour trip became a 16 hour odyssey and
we arrived in Danvers at about 2:30 am, where I fell into bed and was
unconscious until well after all the meetings had long ended. I was too busy
rearranging all our travel to think about the meetings during the chaos.
Betsy
R. Marks 7:13
PM
It's a really good idea to read through the Standing Rules. They exist because
that's what was required to make the meetings and organization function.
Mera Rose 7:13 PM
And that’s about 20 messages at least that everyone needs to have time to catch
up on.Good night y’all!
Mera Rose 8:08 PM
Cross posted from Yahoo:
As Acting President, I’ve been asked to appoint the Marty Gear Fund Committee,
and I am continuing the appointments as below:
Committee
Chair: Byron Connell
Committee Members:
Jill Eastlake
Jacqueline Ward
Ken Warren
Elaine Mami
Please
join me in thanking them for continuing to serve and preserving Marty’s legacy.
Cordially,
Mera Babineaux, Acting
President
Elaine
Mami 8:56
PM
Betsy, I've come to the realization that the majority of this crap has been
instigated by you. I'm not willing to listen to you any longer, but
I'm here and I'm not leaving. May I respectfully ask you to shut the
hell up or resign.
Elaine
Mami 8:59
PM
And I will not rescind those remarks. I just regret not making them
sooner. Now I need to get some sleep because - old as I am (77 in 2
weeks) I still go to work tomorrow.
Yours in costuming,
[1 reply Last reply 2019-11-19 8:07 AM]
Mera Rose 2 years ago
Your concerns are noted and I thank you for your candor.
Elaine
Mami 8:59
PM
Elaine
3 replies Last reply 2019-11-19 8:07 AM]
Lorien Fletcher 2 years ago
You know, I have been really quiet here, watching all of this nonsense.
1. Slack works fine.
2. The ICG needs to move on and serve it's guilds.
3. I have no interest in an organization full of people who do nothing but
obstruct progress
Also sent to the channel
Lorien Fletcher 2 years ago
So in case it is not clear, I was happy to see someone (Elaine M.)
speak out against all of this obstructionist behavior.
Mera Rose 2 years ago
Your concerns are noted and I thank you for your candor.