Messages in ICG #boardofdirectors (Slack) <2019-11-23 2019-11-25>

2019-11-24

Judy Mitchell 10:56 AM

excuse me, guys? I think people are jumping to a few conclusions and tempers are once again running high. First, Randy no one is trying to kick you off the BoD, you (and anyone else) is certainly welcome to observe while you get your paperwork and dues all organized; that's what transparency is all about. The objection was in your eagerness to join in, which is usually a good thing, but technically a conditional rep (just like other members, and alternate reps) is not supposed to join in on anything until everything is duly processed according to our bylaws & standing rules. Jeanine has pointed out that in order to vote, dues must be current for at least 14 days prior to the meeting date - and since this is a never ending meeting, 14 days prior to a vote.

Come on, there will be other votes happening to join in on! Is Counting Randy's vote important enough to go against our bylaws & standing rules and potentially cause us to lose our non-profit status??? I have checked with a lawyer today and yes, if we do not abide by our own bylaws and standing rules, we can, very quickly and easily, be stripped of our nonprofit status! I ask again: is his vote, which when made was outside of full chapter status being received 14 days before a vote, worth that? I'm sorry, but while willingness to participate is admirable, no it's not. There will be other votes to join in on.

[1 reply Last reply 2019-11-24 11:10 AM]

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Judy, before Jeanine had ever posted about this issue, it had already been handled. Randy had been privately informed that his vote could not count because of the bylaws. He did not realize it, or he would not have voted. It can’t be removed in Slack, but Pierre, Vicky, and I are all very aware that it couldn’t under the bylaws and had already taken it into consideration. No one is going against the bylaws. Only votes from voting BoD reps in good standing will count. It just didn’t need to be handled so publicly, especially with the heated debate on these motions, as it stirs up more issues like questions from members on who should (and shouldn’t) be allowed to vote based on what has occurred recently and certain reps behavior. No one has been censured. All BoD rep votes in accordance with the bylaws will be counted.

But no one, no one, should be told they shouldn’t be here for any reason. No one. If they’re paying members, they have a place. If they’re approved chapters in their grace period, they have a place.

Everyone has a place here. And as to being stripped of non-profit status - that’s exactly why the NOVA rep brought these motions forward. There has been a lot of discussion with attorneys... obviously we don’t want to lose the 501(c)3, and these motions actually pertain to issues that have been identified in talking with those attorneys. We’re actually all working in the same context - trying to protect the Guild and the future of the organization. We may have differences of opinion on how best to do it, but those can be addressed through resolving to work together and discuss these things civilly to create timely resolutions...

Thank you for your candor.

Judy Mitchell 10:58 AM

I see all this as simply one more indication that a Chapter Service position/committee is really needed to help new chapters understand how their reps may interact on the BoD. But again, such a committee/position needs to be outlined first before we can vote to create one.

[21 replies Last reply 2019-11-24 12:48 AM]

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
It is inappropriate for one board member to come up with an entire position. The job of creating the position is one for the whole board. It has been said numerous times that this is to get the board to create the position.

Judy Mitchell 2 years ago

I'm not disagreeing on that. I'm saying that words matter! a motion needs to be fully developed before it's voted on. a committee can be formed to create the wording, or the BoD can be a committee of the whole to create the wording, but voting on an overbroad, empty situation leads to a whole mess of trouble. that's what people are trying to avoid. Especially in legal matters (like bylaws and standing rules), phrasing is very important. You can't just toss out: 'we need to do this' without stating exactly what it is and is allowed to do!

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
I said “CREATE” for a reason. And it is being proven more and more each day WHY the board needs to CREATE the positions. Trust me, when I was in several weeks of discussions with board members, guild members, and my lawyer, this was fully developed.

Judy Mitchell 2 years ago

Then Mera can declare teh BoD to be a Committee of the Whole and address what was developed. But that's never happened. There's no real debate on whether it NEEDS to happen or not. But I know I don't want to vote on open-ended empty positions. A motion like that that passes, would become a Standing Rule, and a SR needs to be properly fleshed out. Please lets see a fully developed motion that can then be discussed instead. It's way to difficult to discuss an empty page with just a title on it.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
I have held off on declaring a committee of the whole because I would like to wait for the conference call of the BoD to have a real time discussion on these issues and have the BoD answer and agree in real time on what needs to be addressed as a committee of the whole first. That way we can finalize an agenda on all issues before the CotW and work through the agenda together.

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Again the whole thing is for the board TO CREATE. But with all the accusations flying here and across the Internet about Marianne and Mera trying to rule by fiat and the like? No way am I going to create a full position on my own. Once this is passed, the board can work on the descriptions and job duties and then vote on that. They can then begin the process of filling the positions. The ball needs to start rolling and this starts it.

Judy Mitchell 2 years ago

Yes, Jacalyn, you absolutely should not on your own create the full wording. Neither should I. And I don't want to. But phrasing is everything, and might have been better done as 2 separate motions for Ombudsman & Chapter Services and phrased as investigating the interest and creation of said position to be duly worked out as to duties, authorities..... It's a problem with writing things off very quickly (ie; rushed), important phrasings that make a world of difference get missed.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Jacalyn - I doubt that most of the BoD knows about the events of the last week, and I’m exhausted by spending 16 hour days online trying to minimize the damage for the guild while still trying to protect myself and my family members from everything that’s being put out there. Can we please not have it brought here into Slack? The personal attacks are not BoD business, IMHO. I just want to get as much done to move past this for the guild as possible. We have 109 days until the annual meeting... I can survive it for 109 days. Let’s just focus on the work to be done.

Judy Mitchell 2 years ago

Btw, I have been told by the lawyer, that my initial withdrawal would not have impacted either aspect being brought forward again as I was correct: a multiple subject being is not the same, legally, as individual single subjects. That's just off hand info, as I have already withdrawn it. But just in case a similar situation should come up in the future....

Mera Rose 2 years ago
I did not consult with an attorney on your withdrawal, only Pierre.

Judy Mitchell 2 years ago

I understand, as I said: I'm just passing on some info.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
As for the motion, @Judy Mitchell and @Jacalyn Boggs , we can absolutely work out a friendly amendment that addresses both of your concerns if that’s alright with both of you? And, if we set it for a short objection window and no one objects we could definitely still move forward on a reasonable timeline. Are both of you willing to work here on a friendly amendment?

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
I guess you missed the part where I said I did this with discussions with BOD members, general members, and my lawyer. My lawyer. Yes. My only concern, which is more amusement, is that people keep trying to claim things are hasty and misrepresent things out of fear or misunderstandings. My lawyer looked at every one of my motions before I submitted them. If someone wants to have a conversation that doesn’t involve some misguided idea that this wasn’t some hasty mistake or whatever else people have said that I’ve totally forgotten.

Judy Mitchell 2 years ago

um... just a Point of Information: that is NOT what a 'friendly amendment is, although it is often confused as such'.

Roberts Rules of Order/faq: How do you deal with a “friendly amendment”?

Answer:
On occasion, while a motion is being debated, someone will get up and offer what he or she terms a “friendly amendment” to the motion, the maker of the original motion will “accept” the amendment, and the chair will treat the motion as amended. This is wrong. Once a motion has been stated by the chair, it is no longer the property of the mover, but of the assembly. Any amendment, “friendly” or otherwise, must be adopted by the full body, either by a vote or by unanimous consent.

If it appears to the chair that an amendment (or any other motion) is uncontroversial, it is proper for the chair to ask if there is “any objection” to adopting the amendment. If no objection is made, the chair may declare the amendment adopted. If even one member objects, however, the amendment is subject to debate and vote like any other, regardless of whether its proposer calls it “friendly” and regardless of whether the maker of the original motion endorses its adoption. [RONR (11th ed.), p. 162.]

Mera Rose 2 years ago
I’m familiar. This is what I was given as the process that the ICG has used previously to amend things in my conversations with Pierre. It’s different than what you stated above, which is what I’m far more familiar with. It’s why your motion to withdraw required an objection period. It was no longer your motion to withdraw. My thinking is that, if you and Jacalyn can agree on how the motion might best be done to handle both of your objections, then, in accordance with that guidance, you could offer it as a motion to amend with an appropriate second and, as it’s less contentious, the chair can ask for a period of objection instead of a vote on the amendment followed by the vote on the motion... have I explained that well?

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
@Mera Rose my hope is your forced servitude will come to an end soon. Personally, I’m not sure why you are being forced to suffer to do so much. No one should have to devote as many hours as you have to a position they have attempted to resign from simply due to unnecessary fires. It is Sunday. You didn’t take yesterday off. I’m gonna recommend you take a day of rest because you’ve more than earned it. Go enjoy Disney+ with your family. This time with them is precious and will end far too soon. I’m off to fill my day with Hallmark movies before The Walking Dead mid-season finale. :) we’ve all earned a break this week.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Yeah... I’m here. The notifications roll in and I handle as I have to. Cleaning my house and taking care of kiddos... cooking a huge roast from one of our spring pigs tonight to last until Thanksgiving Day because I have so much other cooking to do for that. Maybe Disney+ tonight (the kids want to watch the Descendants movies again). Here’s hoping it’s all calm this week!

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
I could use a week of calm and I haven’t been dealing with near as much as you have. I will say a prayer for you especially since it sounds like it will be a busy one for you with the holiday. Joy of being single: i can just buy a microwave pizza and call it a day. :) (actually i think I may go to my cousin’s but I haven’t decided if I have the energy for that. The whole pizza thing sounds way tempting.)

Judy Mitchell 2 years ago

Mera, looking over the suggestions you sent me in DM, about using comments from the survey, I'm really feeling pretty strongly that since you put this into the member survey it really has no business being voted on before the survey is closed and results are posted. Same with everything else in the survey that directs to motions currently on the floor, it's just not right. I can motion to Postpone (again!) until the survey results are closed and posted and then revisit the motion for division if that works for you.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
We do an orphan Thanksgiving every year and have since 2001 after D got back from deployment on the USS Georgia right after 9/11. Everyone is welcome. Yes, that’s also an invitation to ICG members who don’t want to be alone

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
I’ve done orphan Christmas before. :) it started the first year I was married because the wasband was a marine and had Duty for 24 hours from Christmas Eve to Christmas Day. Someone found out and invited me over and then we made plates to take to him and the other guy with him and for the MPs standing guard at the gates. After that I started doing the same. We’ve often lived away from family, plus my parents aren’t really big on holidays anyway.

PollyAPP 11:12 AM

Motion #11-9-2019-1: Motion for The ICG Board to issue a formal and public apology to a. The three potential chapters lost b. Marianne and Mera c. CosMAKTx as they cited the turmoil of the BOD as one of their reasons for disbanding.

Yes | 67% (12)@Patrick, @Robin Egger, @Randall Whitlock + 9 more

No | 17% (3)@Lisa Ashton, @Jeanine Swick, @Judy Mitchell

Abstain | 17% (3)@Betsy R. Marks, @Antoinette De Alteriis, @Mera Rose

Total Votes: 18

Comments (3 Total)
@Mera Rose:

As previously stated, I abstain from this vote for ethical reasons.
@Judy Mitchell:

I feel it should not even be under consideration until the results of Sarah's investigation has finished and been reported.

Each side in any investigation always believes it is the correct side, that's why there is an investigation.
@Mera Rose: I have been asked to remind everyone that Sarah’s investigation is on behalf of her chapter due to the involvement of her chapter members and is not an ICG investigation, as she has also stated. She has stated that the findings will be shared with the ICG when it is done, but when that occurs it will be up to the BoD to make a decision on whether to accept them or do anything with them.

Owner: @Mera Babineaux (Mera Rose) | Closes: Dec 9, 2019 at 11:12 AM | Responses are Non-Anonymous

[6 replies Last reply 2019-12-09 11:50 AM]

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
@Elaine Mami

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
@bod this is the most recent vote! Hope this helps! :)

Mera Rose 2 years ago
@Byron Connell

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Patrick O’Connor has emailed a vote to abstain

Mera Rose 2 years ago
The motion carries 12 yes, 3 no, 3 abstained.

Judy Mitchell 2:26 PM

(cross-posting to yahoo)
as requested by the Acting-President in order to clarify things, I move to divide original motion 11-7-2019-2 into component subjects of Ombudsman and Chapter Services, such that each may receive its due attention.

[1 reply Last reply 2019-11-24 2:36 AM]

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Motion 11-7-2019-2D as motion to divide original motion 11-7-2019-2 into component subjects of Ombudsman and Chapter Services, such that each may receive its due attention”. The chair proposes a 5 day objection period. If there is no objection by 11/30/2019 (accounting for the Thanksgiving Holiday), then the motion will divided so discussion and voting can occur on each new motion.

Jeanine Swick 2:29 PM

Seconded

Jeanine Swick, SiW
ICG Treasurer

[1 reply Last reply 2019-11-24 2:36 AM]

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Placed in #motions

Judy Mitchell 2:31 PM

Following the dividing of the previous motion,
I move to create a committee to discuss the role of Chapter Services, being comprised of either the Board of Directors as a Committee of the Whole, or a separate creation committee chaired by the corresponding secretary and filled with no fewer than five chapter presidents and other members appointed by the President or a written request of at least five board reps. This committee will prepare a report with a plan for remedy to be presented to the board at the next annual meeting in Montreal.

[6 replies Last reply 2019-12-03 11:14 AM]

Mera Rose 2 years ago
This can be assigned a motion to amend number once the objection period has ended.

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Huh so it already needs an amendment by the person doing it? That seems confusing to the day the least.

Judy Mitchell 2 years ago

really? what's confusing? Mera suggested that I move to divide the original, so I did. Once divided, I simply moved for each individual aspect. It's not really that confusing. Now they original concept can continue separately - as they should have been.

Mera Rose 2 years ago

Robert's Rules can get confusing, but Judy did it correctly for what she wanted to accomplish.

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Yeah well it read like she immediately wanted to change this before the objection period even really started, not doing what was needed 5 days from now when the objection period ends.

Mera Rose 2 years ago

Gotcha - yeah the motions to amend happen after the motion to divide the way they were done.

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Yeah probably could have been worded better and all that. But eh... it’s not the only poorly worded thing we got in discussion period right now.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Previous comment failed to post: the Motion to Divide now creates 2 separation motions: 11-7-2019-2D1: to create the position of an Ombudsman and 11-7-2019-2D2: to create the position of a Chapter Coordinator. Amendments to each have been made and seconded.

Motion 11-7-2019-2D1A: Motion to create a committee to discuss the role of Ombudsman (should the membership survey deem it useful), being comprised of either the Board of Directors as a Committee of the Whole, or a separate creation committee chaired by the corresponding secretary and filled with no fewer than five chapter presidents and other members appointed by the President or a written request of at least five board reps. This committee will prepare a report with a plan for remedy to be presented to the board at the next annual meeting in Montreal.

Motion 11-7-2019-2D2A: Motion to create a committee to discuss the role of Chapter Services, being comprised of either the Board of Directors as a Committee of the Whole, or a separate creation committee chaired by the corresponding secretary and filled with no fewer than five chapter presidents and other members appointed by the President or a written request of at least five board reps. This committee will prepare a report with a plan for remedy to be presented to the board at the next annual meeting in Montreal

.Discussion period ends on 12/14/2019 at 5:05pm, voting period ends 1/3/2020 (adjusted for holidays.)

Jeanine Swick 2:34 PM

Seconded
Jeanine Swick, SiW
ICG Treasurer

Judy Mitchell 2:35 PM

Again following the dividing of the previous motion,

I move to create a committee to discuss the role of Ombudsman (should the membership survey deem it useful), being comprised of either the Board of Directors as a Committee of the Whole, or a separate creation committee chaired by the corresponding secretary and filled with no fewer than five chapter presidents and other members appointed by the President or a written request of at least five board reps. This committee will prepare a report with a plan for remedy to be presented to the board at the next annual meeting in Montreal.

[2 replies Last reply 2019-12-03 11:14 AM]

Mera Rose 2 years ago
This can be assigned a motion to amend number once the objection period has ended.

Discussion period ends on 12/14/2019 at 5:05pm, voting period ends 1/3/2020 (adjusted for holidays.)

Jeanine Swick 2:38 PM

Seconded

Jeanine Swick, SiW
ICG Treasurer

Jacalyn Boggs 2:50 PM
So you have just significantly shortened the amount of time for a committee to prepare things. But good luck committee with a timeline of only January 4-February 4 instead of potentially Dec 9-February 4. Just wanted to point out this timeline to folks, especially those who might be considering volunteering for these committees.

Judy Mitchell 2:53 PM

um, no. Your original had voting ending on Jan 2 completely creating the postions. These extend to March (next annual meeting in Montreal). It's the vote on dividnt the amendment that Mera has shortened the time for.

Pierre Pettinger 2:58 PM

Since the subject of a committee of the whole has come up, a quick word. There are some differences in such a committee. If the body adopts a resolution to move to a committee of the whole, I would ask everyone to HOLD discussion until I can brief everyone. Also, I would recommend that a separate channel be created for that committee to discuss. This will insure that there is no confusion and that committee discussions remain separate from discussion of the other remaining motions.

[1 reply Last reply 2019-11-24 3:04 AM]

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Any future committee would always have a channel to hold that talk, just like they do now.

Mera Rose 3:00 PM

Took the words right out of my mouth Pierre! Wanted to make sure we got you involved before that part went further. On the timelines, for clarification - the motion the way it was would have gone to vote today, ending on December 9. IF it had passed, undivided, then it could have gone to committee on December 10. With the motion to divide objection period ending on 11/30, and the discussion period on the new motions to amend (pending) that takes the voting period on the amendments to December 15. Then the voting on each motion would end on 1/4 (4 days added for holidays).

[1 reply Last reply 2019-11-24 3:06 AM]

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Yeah that’s a crappy timeline. I would suggest the committee will need to be made from highly motivated and proactive members because otherwise the deadline will not be met.

Judy Mitchell 3:03 PM

keep in mind that the Committee of the Whole was only an option, it could also be a committee chaired by the corresponding secretary and filled with no fewer than five chapter presidents and other members appointed by the President or a written request of at least five board reps. eithe

[3 replies Last reply 2019-11-24 3:25 PM]

Vicky Assarattanakul 2 years ago

As I am already stretched very thin, I cannot guarantee that I would be an effective chair for another very active committee.

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
That’s very fair, especially if you are forced to keep transcribing between slack and yahoo, too. There’s only so much time in a day.

Mera Rose 2 years ago
Oh no Vicky... you’ve got enough on your plate with the 3 committees you chair. There are plenty of other people available to chair and serve on the committee.

Pierre Pettinger 4:20 PM

To be clear, when I suggested a separate channel, I mean not on #boardofdirectors. Create a new section so such a discussion is separate. That would be good practice for any committee.

Jacalyn Boggs 4:21 PM
Yes. Right now there are channels for committees. This is part of why we wanted to use Slack. You can make as many channels as you like to organize things. I still think it would have been better to make a channel to just hold the polls for the board to vote on.

Carrie Vaughn 4:54 PM

I agree on the polls channel. I couldn't find some of them earlier through the conversations.

Jacalyn Boggs 4:55 PM
Yeah I made sure they were pinned. But still. I think one these polls close a channel should be made and they should be there. Zero discussion, only polls

Mera Rose 5:42 PM

I think that's a great idea. We can't move the ones that are already here, but we can do it for future polls

Jacalyn Boggs 5:43 PM
Yeah I mentioned it before but we didn’t do it. We can’t move what we have going, but I think we should going forward for sure.

Mera Rose 5:44 PM

It was probably lost in the fray... ah well. Wonder if I can edit the polls to allow it to show in two channels???

Jacalyn, you're the one who knows Polly best. Can that be done?

Jacalyn Boggs 5:45 PM
Idk let me experiment. Right now I wonder if tagging the people who haven’t voted in each of the polls like I did for Elaine might be a good idea.

Mera Rose 5:45 PM

Yes. I think that would be helpful so that they can find the polls

[1 reply Last reply 2019-11-24 5:46 PM]

Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Also they can know they are able to vote.

Mera Rose 5:46 PM

Ok - I'm offline now. Gotta get kiddos in bed. Night all!

Jacalyn Boggs 5:46 PM

replied to a thread:Yes. I think that would be helpful so that they can find the polls.

Also they can know they are able to vote.