Marianne
Pease 8:36
AM
@Elaine is the representative for her chapter and has checked in for the
month. (Thanks for always making the regularly posted checkin
list, @Anne Davenport!). Betsy does not have the right to make the motion,
and motions for the Silicon Web should be made by (or through) Elaine.
Secondly,
instead of making a full 'amendment by substitution,' I would like to request
that issues/amendments be brought up topically. I've heard (second and third
hand) that individuals have specific issues but unless they're brought up for
discussion, how can we know what they are?
@Betsy R. Marks Guidelines make a host of changes from changing the
document to a second person point of view (instead of third person), removing
the Documentation section from general competition guidelines to being specific
to Historical costuming, and altering the accessibility sections in a way that
I'm informed would remove us from legal compliance.
@Merrily, you've always been an advocate for accessibility of all types, are
the GCFCG rep, and the only valid motion on this. Are you going to repropose
this amendment by substitution? I've heard that you would like to make some
changes to the proposed guidelines but haven't heard anything from you on what
those changes actually are? What are the areas that you want to discuss and
improve?
Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, let's get the heart of
the actual issues people have and actually talk.
Marianne
Mera Rose 8:40 AM
So - I think after reading some of these posts and
listening to comments and concerns from some of the forums and from members,
there’s some misunderstanding and mischaracterization of who I am, why I’m
here, and what my goals are with this organization. I guess I never
got introduced to everyone here, so I’ll post my intro/bio/thoughts on
everything to this thread. Read at your leisure, lol, it’s actually
against my nature to do this sort of thing as I am “the quiet
type.” I’m more of an introvert and known is most circles personally
and professionally as a mediator. (Meyers Briggs INFJ.)Please
respond with your bios/intros here too. Many of us don’t know each
other or have interacted minimally, so it would be good to know more about
everyone that we are working with!
[2 replies Last reply 2019-09-17 9:56
AM]
Mera Rose 2 years ago
I’ve been here for 4 years, and I’ve listened to the suggestions, complaints,
history, etc. I don’t do drama, and I’m very straight
forward. Since I started with the ICG, and as I stated to Phil Gust
when he and I first talked about being considered for VP, I have dedicated
myself to finding the best practices to use to achieve the central goal of our
current mission statement: to preserve the works of Costumers and
Cosplayers in our archives and create a truly inclusive community for everyone,
professional, amateur, conventioneer, or hobbyist, who wants to participate.
All of the work I have done on the 5 year plan
and the current guidelines revision with Marianne was done in this spirit, and
the idea that I’ve offended anyone through that work is truly unintentional and
saddens me greatly. Please accept my heartfelt apology if you have
been offended by any of my statements or work product. I want to see
this organization thrive, or I wouldn’t be here, and I hope that everyone
understands that my intentions are to improve communications, increase
membership and chapter numbers, aid with updates to documents and online
technology usage to promote the most inclusive environment possible and
streamline content for members, chapters, and MDs and conventioneers, and
increase revenue to ensure the most comprehensive archive possible of this
amazing visual art that is Costuming.
Marianne and I knew that these updates may not
be received well, which is why we presented them at CostumeCon
2019 and put them up for discussion and debate. We really wanted
everyone to look at them and give their input and hoped it would spur the kind
of conversations that are now finally occurring, but after 6 months with no
input and pressure from the Con community to update the guidelines felt it was
important to move them to a vote. Please note that EVERYTHING in the
5 year plan is still on the floor for discussion and input, and committees are
currently being formed to create finalized documents to guide us for the next 5
years.
We WANT your input. We would
appreciate it if it could always be given in a civil tone, and ask that
everyone avoid comments made in anger or frustration. We acknowledge
that the current guidelines revision is not perfect, but it utilized many
suggestions and incorporates requests from MDs and conventioneers as well as
bringing the general document into compliance with established
non-discrimination laws in the US. A new guidelines committee should
be appointed after the vote on this update to continue substantive changes for
2020. Consider this a stepping stone. I concur that there
are sections that should be added. An entire section on
thermoplastics and armor was submitted for this document but was removed from
this draft for brevity. I wrote that section as well as the large
costume section, and the non-discrimination sections, and safety
guidelines. I really would love additional input on those sections
as these are based on my knowledge and input from sources outside the ICG, including
masquerade den mothers, directors, and conventioneers, and VABADAN attorneys
who screened language for non-discrimination after it was requested to remove
the specific US laws names.
Please take this time to look at the 5 year
plan. The committees that will be formed will present changes based
on that plan, hopefully at the annual meeting in 2020, so that we can call for
votes and move forward on our attempts at recruitment and acquisitions for the
archives. I am truly interested in hearing all ideas and thought I’d
be serving more as a coordinator and consultant than a content
creator.
This organization has a history of amazing
people and amazing work. Some have sought to minimize its
contributions, but I feel that’s an issue of the past that we must move past
and not allow to define the future of the organization.
Thank you for reading this. I hope
to continue working with everyone for many years to come!
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
There is no such thing as an “amendment by substitution”. Further, things like
amendments need to be done on the relational level, so in this case an elected
board member.
However there are a few things that I think
should be discussed that could form potential amendments to be voted on from
what I saw in this out of order revision. I will go through them
line by line. To contain the noise, I would like to do this in
threaded conversations doled out over the course of the next roughly 24-48
hours, give or take and based on discussion level. These items, being discussed
openly by the board, may prove what is needed (and should have been done) for
the board members to make an informed vote when the voting begins next week.
But we should not remove the third
person. It is the wrong choice. A professional document of this nature needs to
be in the third person. Furthermore, it is far less biased in the third
person. This is a correction that is long overdue.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
@Mera Rose I believe anything not regarding the guidelines from the 5 year
plan needs to be publicly held back until the guidelines are
completed. We don’t need to muddy these already muddy waters due to
our of order items with the guidelines. Right now we need to focus on the
guidelines and other business (such as dealing with the budget) until after the
guidelines vote next week. The five year plan was definitely contentious, and
we don’t want to risk that bleeding over in to the obviously contentious
guidelines discussion.
Merrily 2 years ago
Merrily's edits and comments on original proposed ICG
Guidelines
[ICG Guidelines-REDLINE-1.docx]
Merrily 2 years ago
I'm in the mist of a crunch at work and my teen
daughter is still recovering from surgery, please forgive me if I don't copy my
comments over to the tread from the document.
Most of my comments are for clarification and
consistency. I'm big on accessibility and that includes making sure new people
are in the loop. I like to assume the reader is new to this and needs to have
some background rather than assume they know things.
I just reviewed the Balticon
masquerade rules with their director and several committee members. A few of my
comments are a reflection of what I experienced in that lively
conversation. There too I was the voice asking for things not
assumed all costumers (or anyone else) just knows these things.
Mera Rose 8:40 AM
So - I think after reading some of these posts and
listening to comments and concerns from some of the forums and from members,
there’s some misunderstanding and mischaracterization of who I am, why I’m
here, and what my goals are with this organization. I guess I never
got introduced to everyone here, so I’ll post my intro/bio/thoughts on
everything to this thread. Read at your leisure, lol, it’s actually
against my nature to do this sort of thing as I am “the quiet
type.” I’m more of an introvert and known is most circles personally
and professionally as a mediator. (Meyers Briggs INFJ.)
Please respond with your bios/intros here too. Many
of us don’t know each other or have interacted minimally, so it would be good
to know more about everyone that we are working with!
[2 replies Last reply 2019-09-17 8:50 AM]
Mera Rose 2 years ago
Hi! I feel like introductions are in order, as it appears that my
bio never made it to anyone or any group, and lots of questions about “who is
she and why is she making all these recommendations” abound. I
thought it pertinent to post a bio so that y’all can see where I’m coming
from. Please also keep in mind that I don’t consider myself an
authority on anything, and everything I do is open for discussion or
debate. I try very hard to make sure I don’t have an ego tied up in
my work as I like to work WITH everyone... inclusion is my #1 thing.
I was born and raised in Roanoke,
VA. I am a professional production designer and we specialize in
costumes, sets, props, makeup, technical operations, theater crew,
etc. For the last 7 years, my husband and I have operated as Prop
House 42 Productions, but prior to that we were Shimmer and Shade with our
former business partner. We have 5 genetically disabled children,
and I am also an education and disabilities advocate with the Virginia
Anti-Bullying and Discrimination Action Network, a group of educators, parents,
advocates, attorneys, and legislators that are working together to affect
change here in our Commonwealth. My husband and I also have a small
hobby farm where we live with our children, central to Richmond so that I can
pester legislators as necessary to advocate for the disabled and for education
reform.
I’ve been doing Masquerades as a competitor,
Director, and judge since DragonCon
1996. I’ve worked with DragonCon the most,
and so I consider it my home convention. I’m also a member of the
Costuming Society of America and was made their liaison to the ICG after I was
elected as Vice President. I’ve worked on independent films, in
theaters, haunts, and amusement parks, and other projects as a costumer, Prop
Master, set designer, and makeup artist. I am also known for
disability accommodating and sensory friendly Costuming, and our family does a
Halloween event every year for children with special needs who would not
otherwise be able to Trick or Treat. You’ve likely seen us online or
in competition as Shimmer and Shade Family Cosplay or my kids as the Mini
Mighty Munchkin Cosplayer brigade since 2010. As we have won many
times, we focus less on winning and more on giving people a good show, generally
through comedic mashups now.
My first degree was in computer science in the
late 90s. I was part of the dot com boom and subsequent bust with a
little company in Seattle WA called KYTA web design. Back then I
specialized in databases, content management, and graphic design. I
also did some writing on White Wolf’s World of Darkness. If you come
across photos of me from 96 - 2002, they’ll most likely be of me in all black,
as I was a goth. Lol. Thankfully, Goths grow up into Steampunks, and I did a lot of time in that realm until a
couple of years ago.
After the dot com bust, I moved to what my
mother, a former ballerina turned 501(c)3 accountant and accounting professor
for VA Tech (I grew up auditing her classes in lieu of requiring a babysitter,
lol), deemed a more stable profession: the law. From 2002
until 2012, I worked as a corporate and employment law paralegal, with a few
detours into family law, entertainment law, Disability law, and collections
law. We were a Navy family, so I lived all over the country and got
to experience and work with many conventions and their Costuming
departments. I became known as a thermoplastics expert and have done
hundreds of panels and demos on thermoplastics and their use in Costuming. I
started creating large scale costumes and props and became known as “The
Replicator” by some sci-fi conventions, as there wasn’t much that I couldn’t
recreate with good production photos and thermoplastics. If you ever
attended a demo given by a girl with blue hair, it was likely me. I
had a branding problem for many years because I allowed conventions to call me
whatever they wanted, lol.
Mera Rose 2 years ago
As the kids’ disabilities became known and we started working with medical, I
moved to the local Con community and commissions I could do at home in addition
to running our production company full time. I took over as the
Masquerade Director for Mysticon, left over Con drama
(I don’t do drama, I’m very straight forward) and now am Big Lick ComicCon’s MD.
I have tons of 501(c)3 experience through all
this, including setting up VABADAN and working with the ARC, Virginia Autism
Project, Autism Society, Cri du Chat Society, etc. Also, as I
audited about 8 years of bachelors and masters level classes and helped my Mom
out for a long time grading papers, etc, I have a lot
of knowledge on accounting and specifically, 501(c)3 accounting. As
a lifelong member of the Democratic Party of Virginia, which started with me
knocking doors at age 8 with my grandmother, I became a parliamentarian and
have been on the communications and rules committees for the DPVA for the last
15 years. As a corporate law paralegal, I have experience with all
of the documents required to facilitate a corporation like ours, and have
served as the legal observer, transcriptionist, and supervised adviser (meaning
legal interpreter/paralegal working under and attorney) for many board meetings,
although I don’t sit for the bar exam until 2021 (currently reading the law to
do this in VA) and can’t give legal advice. As a disabilities
advocate and paralegal, I have lots of experience with the ADA and due process
and OCR filings. As a former web designer, I have lots of experience
with web design, flow, marketing, advertising, databases, graphics, and
increasing revenue from target audiences. And as a costumer in this
community since 1996, I have a lot of experience with Masquerades, Guidelines,
tech ops, and all of the things that go into making conventions work for
Costumers and cosplayers.
I’ve been here for 4 years, and I’ve listened
to the suggestions, complaints, history, etc. I don’t do drama, and
I’m very straight forward. Since I started with the ICG, and as I
stated to Phil Gust when he and I first talked about being considered for VP, I
have dedicated myself to finding the best practices to use to achieve the
central goal of our current mission statement: to preserve the works
of Costumers and Cosplayers in our archives and create a truly inclusive
community for everyone, professional, amateur, conventioneer, or hobbyist, who
wants to participate.
All of the work I have done on the 5 year plan
and the current guidelines revision with Marianne was done in this spirit, and
the idea that I’ve offended anyone through that work is truly unintentional and
saddens me greatly. Please accept my heartfelt apology if you have
been offended by any of my statements or work product. I want to see
this organization thrive, or I wouldn’t be here, and I hope that everyone
understands that my intentions are to improve communications, increase
membership and chapter numbers, aid with updates to documents and online
technology usage to promote the most inclusive environment possible and
streamline content for members, chapters, and MDs and conventioneers, and
increase revenue to ensure the most comprehensive archive possible of this
amazing visual art that is Costuming.
I’m 41 now, but expect the secrets of the
universe to be unraveled when I turn 42 in November, as it is the answer to
life, the universe, and everything.
Much to all!!!
Pierre
Pettinger 9:13
AM
To make things clear to Jacalyn's points of order, which I have posted on the
Yahoo list.
Pierre
Pettinger 9:13
AM
Okay,
First, the question is the movers right to make a motion. She
identifies as the President of her chapter (the defacto
representative to the BOD under SR 6) but the alternate representative. The
mover needs to inform us if the regular representative is unavailable. If so,
she has standing to make a motion. If the official representative is available,
then she does not. In the latter situation the regular representative may:
remake the motion themselves; or cede authority to the alternate (in which case
they may not vote until they reassert standing); or the seconder may make the
motion and look for another person to second the motion.
Second, this is an amendment by substitution. An amendment by
substitution occurs when the amending motion is to delete text from the
original motion and replace it with other text. An amendment by substitution is
in order even if the entire body of the original text is being replaced.
Dependent on the response of the original mover, the motion is
in order.
Pierre E. Pettinger, Jr.
[7 replies Last reply 2019-09-17 7:21 PM]
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
You need to take it to the thread
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
But also, the representative is here and was not listing as unavailable.
Second, there is no such thing as amendment by substitution.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
I strongly suggest you read Standing Rule 23, regarding Pierre's role as
Parliamentarian, and in particular section C, regarding Robert's Rules of
Order. If you'd like, I can also provide a link to the section of the online
version pertaining to amendments.
Pierre has served in this role since the
position was founded and the Standing Rule is the original, from 1990.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Are you trying to call in Pierre's role as parliamentarian in to question? If
you think that the President or Board need to call in to question his
relevance, then you need to state so, rather reminding us to review that this
position is a non-voting position appointed by the President and serving at
their pleasure. While he is wrong as you had not been stated to be taking
Elaine's place as well as you were not submitting an actual amendment but a
change of far more than half of the current proposed document, and as thus out
of order, I feel like your pointing us to the standing rule regarding his role
as a little odd. (edited)
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
I have no question as to Pierre's value as Parliamentarian, but you seem to be
at odds with his opinion, which is why I brought it up. I trust Pierre's
opinion and rulings completely, without question.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
And as I said, good night.
Pierre Pettinger 2 years ago
Just saw this thread. Jacalyn says there is no such thing
as Amendment by Substitution. I refer her to Roberts Rules, 11th
Edition. Page 134. This is Section 12; regarding process. Part 3b.
Jacalyn
Boggs 9:14
AM
Topic of conversation regarding the guidelines. Please keep all comments to
this topic in this thread. In the portion of the guidelines regarding tech
rehearsals, we state that they are important and outline procedures and the
like. There is no language regarding events unable to comply with tech
rehearsals. Should we perhaps consider amending the section with some wording
to include “when available” of some sort or do we believe that it is simply
understood this section is only for those events with the capability of tech
rehearsals?
Elaine 10:00 AM
For the purpose of the discussion of the Motion to amend current draft of the
ICG Guidelines: Ensuring Fair Competition, I am standing aside as the SiliconWeb BoD rep and Betsy
Marks will be standing in my stead.
We
are in frequent communication on this matter and will be reporting as a team to
the SiWeb chapter on the discussion and resolutions.
Betsy
R. Marks 10:02
AM
Thank you, Elaine!
Betsy
R. Marks 10:07
AM
I believe that resolves the question of whether the motion I made was in order.As the maker of the motion, I have a right to address
the BOD and explain my reasons for the amendment.
Because my last official date at my job is 9/24, I reserve the right to submit
this information after COB this evening. I will also provide a biography, so
that people who are new to this organization have an understanding of what my
roles have been over the last 32 years, and why I made the amendment to the
proposed document revision.I am happy to break down
each individual wording change, but this will take time and I have limited free
time until Saturday.
Thank you for your attention and understanding.
VR
Betsy
Marianne Pease 10:46 AM
I’ve been doing some parliamentary procedure research and substitute amendments
seem to be a fairly complex subject. Some legislative bodies rule that you
can’t substitute one motion for another until the original is postponed or
disagreed to. In our situation with the lengthy online format as opposed to
immediately taking votes in a room all together, we would have to pass the
original motion, then vote and pass Betsy’s proposal, THEN pass any other
amendments to her proposal that are made in order to bring her document up to
publishing standard.
Furthermore, there is no requirement for the chair to take a
motion. This decision may be overturned by the board (remember for us, it’s a
15 discussion period, 15 voting period, etc) and then
the motion may then resume.
As such, we will proceed as follows.
The motion made and seconded by Betsy and Merrily is not recognized.
This is not because I don’t acknowledge their point of view or
wish to discourage discussion and amendments to the motion but rather to
streamline the process so we don’t wind up with Amendments to Amendments to
Amendments of the Motion that all need to pass sequentially in order to achieve
the final outcome.
Please submit motions for amendments to the original document.
If you believe that Motion 2019-09-08 should be replaced entirely, please vote
against approving it when the voting period begins on September 28, and submit
a new motion if it fails to pass the BoD.
[1 reply Last reply 2019-09-17 10:54 AM]
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
I am looking forward to seeing the discussion continue on the proposed
guidelines until the voting period.
Betsy
R. Marks 10:54 AM
Fine. I will withdraw the single amendment document
and provide each substitution separately. As I used the current document to
create my revision, I will need to revisit the original and your revisions and
make corrections from that. I can say that I will vote no on the existing
proposed revision as written.
I'm out of work for good after the 24th with no replacement job
in sight, so I will have plenty of time starting the 25th.Thank you for your
consideration.
Betsy
[10 replies Last reply 2019-09-18 7:10 AM ]
Marianne Pease 2 years ago
Thank you for understanding my reasoning. It's a complicated topic and I just
want to make it as simple to get through as possible.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
I get that. This would be a LOT easier to handle in a committee format.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
That's why there was a call out for people interested in a committee and why
there will be committees in the future. This has gone through and is now a
proposal to the board, and thus, out of committee.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
And if the motion is withdrawn it can go right back to committee again, which
is exactly the same as the last process, when the guidelines were updated in
2010.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
I have a job interview in the morning.
Good night.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
But it is not a motion to withdraw. Again, it has been rejected. You do not
need to withdraw it.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Also there’s no committee for the document you created as there was not one
appointed by the president. That was something you chose to do on your own.
However, once the vote takes place, it will be time to form a new committee.
You can request the president consider you for placement on said committee, but
there is no way to take your document “back to committee” as there wasn’t a
committee.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
I'm not talking about my document.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
As regards a call for committee members, the ICG-D list contains no such call.
The last reference I could find came from Phil Gust in 2016.There was reference
made on the BOD list on Yahoo in 2017 and 2018, but nothing more recent than an
offhand comment on a different thread that Marianne was working on the
Guidelines alone.
I will happily walk this comment back if
someone can point me to the public call for committee members within the last
nine months, outside of the Annual meeting.Thank you.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Then what motion do you want withdrawn? The only one on the floor is the
current guidelines. There is no need to withdraw this as 1. It is replacing
a decade old document that is far out of date 2. We have tried for far too many
years to get to this point 3. We have had it for six months for anyone to
discuss and no one has done so, 4. We are now in discussions prior to a vote
commencing next week. As most people are not participating in
the conversation, they must feel Ok with the document. However, your constant
unwillingness to positively contribute to moving forward and to instead
distract from the conversation is a huge problem. None of us have the time to
continue wasting on your filibustering attempts.
Betsy
R. Marks 10:55 AM
This does not change Elaine's status with regard to
the motion on the floor: I am the primary from our chapter for the purpose of
discussion the Guidelines.
VR
Betsy
[4 replies Last reply 2019-09-17 10:58 AM]
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
No it does not. I'm not sure why you felt the need to state this as
Elaine has stated that you will be the representative for this discussion.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
Just making sure we are all on the same page, as there have been questions,
both on this board and off.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
Once Elaine made a statement, that removed the question. That is
actually how this procedure works.
Betsy R. Marks 2 years ago
Thank you, Jacalyn.
Betsy
R. Marks 4:40 PM
Point of Information:
Pierre, must a request to withdraw a motion come from the
original maker of the motion or can such a motion be made by someone other than
the maker of the motion? The rest is quite clear except this point.
My read of Robert's Rules is unclear because of the nature of
the request.
Thanks for shedding light.
Betsy
[4 replies Last reply 2019-09-18 04:15 AM]
Jacalyn Boggs 2
years ago
As the motion was not recognized and the document is not on the floor, there is
no need to make a request to withdraw.
Betsy R. Marks 2
years ago
From your point of view, perhaps, but not from mine, thanks.
Jacalyn Boggs 2
years ago
Actually the president literally said the words “The motion made and seconded
by Betsy and Merrily is not recognized.” This isn’t a matter of
opinion. It is fact, as stated by the President.
Betsy R. Marks 2
years ago
What makes you think I'm talking about my denied motion?
[2 replies Last reply 2019-09-17 08:39 PM]
Merrily 2 years ago
I don’t like leaving things “understood “. To assume everyone has the same
knowledge or experience sets people up for confusion. I think it should be made
clear contestants should have that option if they desire. We should have some
examples when someone may like to do this so a new director or contestants may
understand why: won an international competition and would like to show their
local audience, etc.
Jacalyn Boggs 2 years ago
I think you make a fair point about how not everyone has the same knowledge so
care needs to be taken when considered something as “understood”.